Jedan za Krunkovu

[Heretik]

8) Ovo će ti se dopasti:

I for one dont like marines for a variety of reasons, the least of which is that under 3rd and soon to be 4th Edition rules, their 3+ armor save simply means TOO much and can be seen as one of the fundamental problems with the game. Yes people take too much Plasma, but why? No people never take shuriken cannons. Again I ask why? Same goes with why 99% of the time someone will take a Basilisk over a Griffon, despite distinct advantages of the latter, leading to the discontinuation of the Griffon entirely. It all comes down to Marines.

However that can be fixed, in 5th Edition, maybe 6th, but Im optimistic so vote for 5th [its already set in stone it wont change for 4th].

My problem with Marines lies with the inconsistancy of the fluff, and at times complete failure of logic, and in turn with rules. I stand firm by the statement that gives the ONLY number for a value of Marine, which generally states that in a situation which you would use a Marine [which isnt represented by 40k anyway, but by something like Space Hulk] the marines are worth 10:1 compared to a NORMAL Guardsman. And yet the fluff repeatedly gives examples of 10 Marines taking out 10,000 Orks or holding off an entire Planet in open rebellion. Even the recent Eye of Terror fluff was littered with instances of "ha we stand a chance now, 1 Company of Marines from the Stupid Pansies Chapter showed up" with no mention of the OVER 1 billion Guardsmen who arrived in the region that very same day, and would have mathematically speaking a MILLION times the impact on the war. You believe that kind of fluff and you must more accurately believe that a Single Marine could take on a Squadron of Imperator class Titans. Because thats what a million Guardsmen could do.

Theres one quote in the BBB "There is less than one Marine for every world in the Imperium, yet it is enough" - Obviously meant to imply one thing. I always got from it "yet it is enough, because in the grand scheme of things, all the marines in the galaxy put together could NOT capture a single world in the Emperors name [mathematically speaking 1,000,000 marines is worth 10,000,000 guardsmen in optimal circumstances. Assuming they only fight in optimal circumstances, which is reasonable as they will outthink most IG Commanders, they are still outVALUED 5:1 on your average Gamma Class world with 1% military recruitment], less than one for every world is enough because its the Guardsmen who do all the work for none of the glory"

Then there are other tidbits that just make no logical sense. Iron Warriors are my favorite example of this. Siege Specialists. Okay in theory, but lets think about this. What are the advantages of a marine.

+Able to go without resupply because they can practically eat sand.
-Unfortunately Siege warfare needs to be in constant resupply or you run out of war materials
+Superior Armor protecting against all but heavy weapons
-Unfortunately at the ranges which siege warfare is fought, those are the ONLY weapons which will be brought to bear
+Advanced training and built in targetting skills to improve accuracy with weapons
-With siege mortars of course, it makes no difference if you're dead on or a foot off, even if you CAN use superior targetting skills
+Advanced martial arts training allowing the Marine to take a club and beat most enemies armed with advanced CC weaponry in close combat
-Of course in siege warfare if the enemy gets that close, you did something HORRIBLY wrong and all is lost anyway
+Marines are worth 10 guardsmen in individual combat
-Unfortunately it still takes 4 people to crew that Basilisk, no matter what
+Marines have advanced training in hostile insertion, able to deploy from space literally feet from their intended target
-In siege warfare expect a war of attrition where such strikes dont matter much

Beginning to see a pattern? The advantage of Iron Warriors over Guardsmen in a REAL Siege Warfare environment should be approximately zero. Certainly nowhere near the amount that would be necessary to justify sending Marines in over sending in, say simply double the number of Guardsmen. Make no mistake, Marines will be slightly more effective, but its so slightly that its irrelevant, and even if it wasnt, you'd still want to use them in a BETTER fasion, one that actually takes advantage of that downright EXPENSIVE training and equipment. Then of course theres the point that they get the IG Basilisk. Which really isnt a siege weapon, when compared to the Griffon Siege Mortar, the Medusa Siege Cannon, the Thunderer Siege Tank, or even the Demolisher Siege Tank. Just because the Basilisk is an Artillery platform does not mean its the best thing for Siege warfare. Its purpose is to scare the enemy more than actually do damage, as its really supposed to be 15 miles away where it couldnt hit a specific target if it tried.

Did I mention I hate the shoulderpads? (:

Evo, šta više reći, MOJ čovjek. :D

[Che]

Jebote,ko da ga je Krunkova sam pisao.Mislim,čak je i dužina otprilike ista...

[Che]

Sad sam ga pročitao do pola i zaključio kako se ovdje radi o još jednom nadrkanom klincu koji se nabrijao na imperijalnu gardu i došao mu je frend sa Iron Warriorima i nabio ga ko svinju.Pa,de,nauči se igrat,debosu kretenoidni...

[Heretik]

Debos si ti, a mene je Kruno zamolio
da mu postam nešto o marincima.

[Sabol]

sve sto se treba iscitati iz ovog heretikovog posta je da su marinci na stolu pre slabi u odnosu na fluff

tj trebali bi drasticno vise kostati u pts-ima ali i imati pravila po fluffu gdje bi jedan company marinaca bio dostatan da napravi svasta....a ne da kao u Đurinom primjeru ginu ko idijoti dvije subote zaredom bez da ista naprave

onaj tko je igrao inkvizitora zna kolika je razlika izmedju jednog marinca i jednog gardista.....pa cak mozda i 10 gardista...a ta se razlika bas i ne vidi u wh40k

[Degman]

Da bi marinac u igri bio kao onaj u fluffu trebale bi mu se sve karakteristike povečati za barem 1. I to fakat sve (i woundovi - ipak ima dva srca i još puno drugih novih/poboljšanih organa). Bolteri bi trebali bit assault 2 24 itd...

Doduše, onda bi koštao barem duplo više, ako ne i po 50 bodova svaki, što bi značilo da bi ljudi odjednom trebali kupiti 2 - 3 puta manju količinu najprodavanije vojske da bi igrali.

Daklem, to se nebu dogodilo.

p.s. Nije ni garda baš slaba po fluffu. Bar ne po svakom - Gauntovi Ghoustovi ubijaju neprijatelje brže i efikasnije od Astartesa

[Sabol]

ma samo usporedi statistike SM i IG u inkvizitoru

str prosjecno oko 100+ viši pa onda još bonus od armora
T također ....
Woundovi = T a kroz power armor lasgun skoro da i ne pređe dok jedan bolter shot skine jednog IG ovca ili ga bar unakazi totalno gdje pogodi (bar 2 rane prosjecno na lokaciju ako ne i 3)
regeneracija na kraju runde marincu skoro vrati kolko prosjecni lasgun radi stete bez oklopa......itd....

jedan heavy weapon tim bi mozda imao sanse protiv jednog marinca na livadi ....no to je inkvizitor....cisto druga igra...

[Krunkova]

Covjek gore pise da su to notorne pizdarije koje marinci benefite imaju...Nime,niti jedan gardist nebi po tome protiv marinca trebo nosit lasgun jer ne radi-rocket launcher s druge strane radi...
No sto post kaze je u biti nek marinci budu posebni,nije bed,ali nek imaju dida-baje koje nisu 3+ sejv jer je to nerealno.Stvarno je bezveze.Nek bolje vide,bolje gadaju itd-sve pet.Ali kad ti netko na glavu spusti dragog isusa od paljbe onda sejv nebit trebao radit.Uzmimo primjer autokanona-koji je top za probijanje tenkova,dakle on moze probit front armour tenka-ali na 3+ marincu nije nis? Npr u 2nd edishnu od toga sejva nije bilo...ili je bio 6+ votever.
To vam Bero zeli objasnit duze vrijeme.
Gledajte kroz povijest-niti jedan oklop nije bio superioran dugo-ubrzo su napravili oruzje protiv njega..

[Che]

ali ovo nije povijest

ovo je igra bez prtjerano puno logike koja se igra s kockicama

meni u takvoj igri logika ne treba.Vama?

[Sabol]

zakaj ste svi vi zapeli tolko za taj j**** sejv...

marinac u inkvizitoru ima armor samo oko 10- 13 .... a lasgun radi 2d6 dmg +tu i tamo ponesto....
lascannon zato radi 5d10 dmga....tj nema beda probit i unistit marinacki oklop.....no

marinac ima 150 + j**** HP-a i taj lascannon u glavu ga počeška za MAX 1/3 HP-a......zabole ga.....
također ...marinac na kraju runde vratioko 10+ 1d3 hpa....a spomenuti lasgun radi i dalje 2d6 .....dakle mozda sejv nije samo oklop .....
isto kao sto lascannon skine 1/4 woundowa carnifeksu....a nitko se ne buni za to....

pa osim ako ne zelite da marinci imaju 4+ save i po 3 wounda svaki ....zacepite vec jednom sa tim SEJVOVIMA

također ...marinac na kraju runde vrati oko 10+ 1d3 hpa....a spomenuti lasgun radi i dalje 2d6 .....dakle mozda sejv nije samo oklop .....

dakle mozda bi trebali dobiti i regeneraciju na kraju runde na....recimo 6+

[Che]

bolje 5+...

[Orky]

zaboravljate jednu stvar: Emperor Protects ...